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| Ssj2 teen gohan had rage boost no? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 16 2016, 05:18 PM (2,205 Views) | |
| + Sandy Shore | Nov 26 2016, 11:46 PM Post #16 |
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There's nothing at all that says Gohan's anger is his Super Saiyan 2—though it was obviously first achieved when he flipped—but there are things heavily suggesting his anger is his "true power"; independent of and greater than his Super Saiyan 2. I've pointed them out already, of course. Gohan was in a constant state of aggression ever since he snapped, to the point of sadism. You might fairly attribute this to the form itself, but it could just as well be indicative of him being in an enraged state. Id est, experiencing a rage boost. However, since we have statements that say his rage is independent of and (at least capable of being) greater than his Super Saiyan 2, I think it certain that it must be the latter. And since he was obviously stronger as brat—his lack of anger being treated as the deciding factor in this difference, and his lack of training being secondary—he was almost certainly rage boosted against Cell. To say nothing of the Dabra scenario, he's likely talking about the moment Gohan got angry over the egg. He flared up before firing the Kamehameha, and there would be no reason whatever for Kaioshin to mention his ki-blast itself to Kibito in a conversation about whether Gohan's strength would be enough to remove the sword; and I don't recall a moment when a character's power itself has ever been assessed on the strength of their finishing moves. Gohan's power as seen by Kaioshin > Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 power as seen by Kibito - which was apparently not even enough by either of them to be deemed capable of removing the sword. |
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| ahill1 | Nov 27 2016, 02:27 AM Post #17 |
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Well, that'd be a strange scenario if Gohan was just a SSJ1, since he showed his SSJ2 powers in the Budokai. But frankly speaking, I wouldn't be too surprised if that was the case. After all, look at how Kaioshin reacted to Base Vegeta, after having seen Gohan Super Saiya-jin 2 at the Budôkai: ![]() He was pretty flabbergasted and even went as far as to say he didn't expect this much power. It's just inconsistent, no matter how you look at it.
Agreed, which is why I don't buy that explanation.
If you think Gohan was a SSJ2 at Boo's shell or vs Dabura, then you could say Kaioshin saw more power from Gohan when Kibito was dead because Fighting chi allow you to grasp the opponents' power better than when they are simply standing still, which is implied by Yamcha, when seeing Goku SSJ for the first time:
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| + Sandy Shore | Nov 27 2016, 02:29 PM Post #18 |
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Yeah, it's definitely quite weird, but not necessarily inconsistent. It might not be a satisfactory way to look at it—though, I think it the only satisfactory way to look at it—but he could always be surprised at Vegeta's base strength because it has monstrous implications for just how powerful they are in general. He knew about Super Saiyan, of course, and how it made them super warriors and all that, but they're so unexpectedly incredibly strong that they don't even to need it to make light of some of the most dangerous beings in the universe, sort of thing; not that Base Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. It makes sense in that way, but there's no in-universe explanation for why Kaioshin tells Kibito he hasn't seen the incredible power Gohan has other than that fact itself: Kibito, who saw Super Saiyan 2, hadn't seen the same level of power from him that Kaioshin had. The only way to spin that or suggest it means something else—or nothing—by way of error is to try and make sense of it out-of-universe, which we don't have any evidence for and brushes us up harshly against Occam's Razor. You might go that route, but it's disregarding something that's clearly made a point of here, and is therefore the likely and appropriate answer. Gohan is clearly noted to get stronger if he gets angry; Gohan notes getting angry, only not as much as "back then" (against Cell); Kaioshin later tells Kibito he didn't witness Gohan's tremendous power. It's very implicit that the reason Gohan got stronger was because he got angry, like he was told to and the audience were clued in to, and there's no need to try and justify it some other way. I'm surprised you find it easier to swallow Gohan being SSJ2 against Dabra/Boo's egg than Gohan's rage boost being independent of and greater than his Super Saiyan 2. I think the boost is far more straight forward and apparent, to the point I find it strange that people would disregard it. The Rage Boost also makes perfect sense in regards to Gohan having hidden power (his potential) he can tap in to, that's explicitly independent of and greater than his Super Saiyan 2. Edited by Sandy Shore, Nov 27 2016, 02:31 PM.
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| ahill1 | Nov 27 2016, 04:27 PM Post #19 |
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I don't agree with base Vegeta being above Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan either (even because it's pretty inconsistent regarding power hierarchies), but that's what's implied when you take Kaioshin's reactions at face value. While the "he is just surprised they are that strong in base" is a viable explanation, I don't go that route. Kaioshin was very afraid of Vegeta fighting Pui Pui alone, saying they shouldn't underestimate Babidi's warriors. Note that, since the beginning, Shin said they'd need the Saiyajin's help to get rid of Babidi's minions and I doubt he'd not expect them to turn SSJ or anything, which would be quite ridiculous. So it seems more likely, at least from my POV, that base Vegeta surpassed all of his estimations for the Saiyajins, not being something just pertained to their base forms. Not that base Vegeta showed more power than SSJ2 Gohan at the Budokai, but the fact that he was able to decimate one of the "supposed" strong warriors, whom them supposedly would struggle with. It happens that those warriors were just trash in general (with the exception of Dabura), and not worthy of Kaioshin's worry.
There's the explanation I purposed (fighting chi =/= standing chi) or just that Gohan was able to fight in equal terms with Dabura, an opponent whom Kaioshin was pretty frightened and surprised when Goku/Vegeta said he's no big deal.
There's not really an appropriate answer. We can only make theories, since this part of the history is really a convoluted one, and AT didn't give us an explanation about all this mess. I personally find the explanation of Kaioshin "w***ing" the Z warriors more due to their nonchalant reaction towards Babidi's fighters, whom Kaioshin thought was serious business, a good one, but I admit it also has its flaws.
Gohan being a SSJ2 in those instances isn't really hard to swallow either, especially going by the statement you are referring to: Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P6.3-5 Context: after Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan 2 Spopovitch: “He-hey, look at this…” *the energy meter spins around* Yamu: “Stupendous energy…! It’s him!” Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4 Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?” Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!” Vegeta: “…Hmph…That *******, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…” Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…” Goku: “…Stop it?” Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4 Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.” Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…” Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.” That statement is complete bulls*** if you go by Gohan being a SSJ1 post Budokai. Even if you go by the SEG multipliers, it'd take a ~3x increase for Gohan SSJ to get so strong he'd be "unbelieavably tremendous" compared to his Budokai SSJ2 self, and yet no increase is noted by anyone else and Vegeta still thinks him and Goku are superior to him, just like they were before the spaceship. Statements haxxing like this are in Dragon Ball since Freeza being surprised Goku surpassed Ginyu (even though Vegeta and Piccolo also did by a landslide) or even since Roshi/Tenshinhan were surprised at Tao Pai Pai's defeat by Goku's hand, but you could probably chalk that up to overestimation. If Gohan were a SSJ2 post Budokai, then Shin's statement would be a lot easier to swallow, without even having to touch in Gohan's rage boost. Edited by ahill1, Nov 27 2016, 04:29 PM.
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| + Sandy Shore | Nov 27 2016, 07:32 PM Post #20 |
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But, considering he was surprised that Goku could turn Super Saiyan and put forth tremendous energy in an instant, it seems as though he hadn't yet realised they can use Super Saiyan on a whim. I know it doesn't make much sense to us, but that's the impression I get that Kaioshin gets. He hadn't once suggested that they turn Super Saiyan, even after they go ahead with fighting alone, and when Goku does what he does to Yakon it makes it seem like he thought they were committed to fighting in base form. Perhaps that's why he wants them to fight together. So him being amazed that Vegeta didn't even need it, let alone any help, makes perfect sense to me how Vegeta would defy all of Kaioshin's estimations by showing how strong he is even without Super Saiyan. Though, I do get how it seems to suggest that his base power alone surpasses all expectations he had of them, Super Saiyan included. I agree that it's very easy to see Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 after the tournament, but even if you do, you still have to recognise the rage boost. The implications of it aren't rectified by this, because Gohan says: Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P3.5-7 Context: after Kaioshin says they must run from Boo Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…” So saying Kaioshin was referring to his in-fight Super Saiyan 2 power when talking to Kibito works, but then Gohan still mentions that whatever state he's in and been using—in this case Super Saiyan 2—isn't all of his true power. Not to mention, Goku tells him after his fight with Dabra, in which he was already a Super Saiyan 2, that he needs to get angry to get stronger. Whether he's Super Saiyan 1 or 2, someone is still referring to his true power being independent of and greater than his Super Saiyan 2, and it's stated to be accessed and/or seen when he gets angry. Super Saiyan 2 ≠ his true power, nor does he in any way need to be angry to access Super Saiyan 2, whatever route you wish to take. Edited by Sandy Shore, Nov 27 2016, 07:39 PM.
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| ahill1 | Nov 29 2016, 04:48 PM Post #21 |
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Yeah, if Gohan were a SSJ2, then that line would be evidence that he could get still more powerful if enranged. If Gohan were a Super Saiya-jin 2, then we can conclude he could control it at will, so him being enranged would allow him to get a power that surpasses even his SSJ2 form. Not only this, but Vegeta was also agnostic about Gohan's enranged powers, after he pretty much laughed at SSJ2 Budokai Gohan's powers: Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4 Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?” Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ” Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…” Vegeta's comment also makes sense if he considers Gohan turning into SSJ2 as something he can do at free will, so his SSJ2 form is no longer his enranged powers in the Boo saga. It doesn't mean his SSJ2 wasn't his enranged powers at the Cell Games, which was specifically the OP's question.
Yeah, but again, this is referring to Boo saga Gohan, which might very well be a different strory from Cell Games Gohan, especially if we assume he can now turn into SSJ2 at free will.
In the Boo saga. Also, Gohan refers to his true power in a different way than Goku did. This latter said that if Gohan goes wild, he can surpass everyone, which would indicate he'd also be above his own SSJ2 powers (as he still didn't reveal SSJ3): Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6 Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone… Still, Gohan is unsure of his superiority over initial fat Boo, the same power considered a laughing matter to Majin Vegeta: Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P3.5-7 Context: after Kaioshin says they must run from Boo Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…” Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P4.6, P5.4-6 Goku: “It’s a ki…! A huge ki has appeared…! Majin Boo has finally come out…” Vegeta: “Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?...I thought so…Kakarot, you and I have now become too strong…By a wide margin! By his nature, Kaioshin is supposed to be someone tremendous, but have you ever once thought that he was incredible? Quite the opposite, it's Kaioshin who’s been bewildered…Majin Boo is fearsome from Kaioshin’s perspective, but from ours he’s not so much…” Goku: “N-no…That’s not it…There’s something abnormal about this ki...” This, however, doesn't dismiss SSJ2 being =/= from enranged Gohan in the Boo saga, I just wanted to bring that up.
That is if we go with Gohan being a SSJ2 post Budokai, that while possible, isn't something set in stone. Frankly speaking, the narrative would make more sense if Gohan weren't a SSJ2 in front of Kibito. Goku even said it was hard for him to master the SSJ and that he couldn't turn into it at will at first: ![]() Maybe Toriyama aknowledged that and went with a different route? I wonder. Edited by ahill1, Nov 29 2016, 05:08 PM.
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Nov 29 2016, 05:48 PM Post #22 |
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Do these numbers not work? Ssj gohan 1 Cell suppressed 1.2 Ssj2 gohan 2 Cell full power 1.5 Idk why a 2x multiplier wouldn't work. It could just be like what daizenshuu said. The final push in the kamehameha could've been that extra rage boost |
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| + Sandy Shore | Nov 29 2016, 07:48 PM Post #23 |
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Goku and Gohan make references to his power against Cell, and how getting angry is the key to achieving that sort of power. Since we know know the difference between his Cell Games power and Boo Arc power isn't Super Saiyan 2, but specifically is a rage boost, he was therefore a rage boosted Super Saiyan 2 against Cell. That's a point I was trying to make, in case I wasn't very clear on that. Yeah, Goku makes it sound like Gohan getting angry will make him the strongest Super Saiyan 2, which is wrong if his rage power puts him exactly at his Cell Games power. That doesn't mean his Cell Games power wasn't rage boosted, however, and there's no reason his rage has to be a set power. Even Vegeta alludes to the unpredictability of it. Gohan definitely does seem to be talking about his Cell Games power, though, as he thinks he should be able to manage something against initial Boo with his "true power", putting him a bit above him, but not to the point of a guaranteed victory, while we know that Majin Vegeta is definitely stronger than that Gohan, and thinks that Boo is a joke. It works perfectly in that regard: Majin Vegeta > SSJ2 Kid Gohan/Gohan's idea of his true power > Initial Boo. No, that's not set in stone, but even if we say he was a regular Super Saiyan post Budokai, Kaioshin still saw a power above his previous Super Saiyan 2 he showed Kibito. If that is the case (Gohan being SSJ1), then he must be talking about the moment Gohan noted himself being angry, only not as much as he was against Cell. Because you still have: Gohan's power as seen by Kaioshin > Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 power as seen by Kibito. Perhaps, but he unquestionably was a Super Saiyan 2 there, and I don't think it really poses any problem at all. Possibly, but we'll never know. |
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| ahill1 | Nov 29 2016, 10:47 PM Post #24 |
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It doesn't mean his rage boost wasn't his SSJ2 at the Cell Games, though. If we assume he could now turn into a SSJ2 at will, then mentioning his fight against Cell and the rage he felt would be fair enough. Now, enranged Gohan must go even beyond the SSJ2, however it doesn't mean it was this way seven years ago. Cell Games = should be enranged to turn into SSJ2 Boo Saga = should be enranged like in the Cell Games, but now to surpass the SSJ2 Works just fine.
Like I said, the post wasn't made to dismiss Gohan enranged being different from his SSJ2 in the Boo saga. I just wanted to raise the point of how strong would a hypothetical enranged Gohan be at the Boo saga.
He could very well be. But the problem I find with it is that Piccolo implied a small gap between Majin Vegeta and Cell Games Gohan, since he wasn't completely sure of the former's superiority: Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P2.3-4 Context: as Vegeta fights Boo Piccolo: “[Vegeta]’s already surpassed Super Saiyan as well…This is tremendous power…Perhaps even greater than Gohan’s when he fought Cell…But then…Even Gohan has been killed by Majin Boo…Why is Majin Boo as [strong?] as this?…” If Vegeta laughed at the same power Gohan considered as still a bit superior to his Cell Games self, then Majin Vegeta should be quite superior to that Gohan, which doesn't seem right with Piccolo's comment. Not to mention it also goes against Goku's estimations of enranged Gohan.
Wait, do you mean putting Gohan (true power) above Boo? I always saw that comment (it doesn't see as there's nothing I can do") as an indicative of true power Gohan being still a bit below initial fat Boo.
Which, like I said, doesn't make sense if Gohan was a mere SSJ. If you want to take Kaioshin's comment into account, then its easiest way is see him as a SSJ2. If he was a SSJ there, then the only explanation I can think of (to make sense of Kaioshin's comment) is to assume Gohan was seen as stronger because he was able to go toe to toe with Dabura, a foe Kaioshin could have also overestimated, the same way he did with Pocus and Yakon.
It poses a lot of problems, I'd say. If he were a SSJ1 there (not saying he was), then everything would more workable. Edited by ahill1, Nov 29 2016, 10:48 PM.
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| + Sandy Shore | Nov 30 2016, 01:11 AM Post #25 |
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I've seen the argument that Gohan needs to be angry to turn Super Saiyan 2 countless times, and it's great to see that you recognise this as being completely false, but I'm confused why you're so resistant to him therefore being rage boosted against Cell, when it seems to follow directly from the previous realisation. It seems like one would have to go out of their way to come up with a reason for why this isn't the case, instead of simply explaining why it is. It is the case because: in order for Gohan to get up to his Cell Games self's power, he needs to become enraged. Since a lack of rage (boost) is the expressed cause for the significant difference between their powers, not Super Saiyan 2, it stands to reason that Cell Games Gohan had this rage (boost). The thing he was noted to have back then, and the thing that Boo Arc Gohan is noted to lack and need to become (at least comparably) as strong again. It all follows logically. If all he did last time was unlock Super Saiyan 2, how could Goku and Gohan be sure he can stack power on top of it by becoming enraged like they know he can? Instead of talks of him becoming comparably as strong, wouldn't they—Gohan at least—be talking as if he'll end up performing another transformation like he did last time? They're talking about him reproducing what he did at the Cell Games—which we know isn't the part about him turning Super Saiyan 2—not about him going one better or doing something he hasn't done before. I know, I know. I was just elaborating on it with you. Well, Vegeta makes it quite clear that himself and Goku are stronger than Gohan was. Noticeably enough that he doesn't speak of them being about the same, but unquestionably states that Goku is stronger. Piccolo doesn't disprove them being stronger, but basically makes it clear they're still in the same realm or tier. A 10% difference is what I'd go with, to play the numbers game, but it could probably even be 15 or 20% and still make sense of both quotes, really. When Gohan says it doesn't seem as if there's nothing he can do, he's basically saying he can do something; he has a shot of winning with his true power, and for that I'd give him a slight edge. If that power makes him only 10% stronger than initial Boo himself, then that can put Majin Vegeta at a stomping gap for Boo's power; just barely or quite considerably, depending on your numbers. Since we know Majin Vegeta considers initial Boo to be a minor threat, and Goku backs this up by worrying about his deeper power or something, and not the power he's displaying, then having "true power Gohan" below even initial Boo would make Cell Games Gohan considerably below the other Super Saiyan 2s, which we both disagree with. I think the way I've arranged it makes sense of all the quotes, and when Gohan speaks of his true power, why would he not be speaking of his Cell Games power at the very least? Unless he's talking about his true power being a relative power amp that would stack on top of his now even weaker base form. Which would itself imply he received a higher amp increase with his Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Cell, since he has experience and an idea of this. Going this route you might then give initial Boo the edge, and have them both still insignificant to Majin Vegeta, though I'd still give the edge to Gohan. Agreed, but Gohan's own estimations put him, shall we just agree, right around initial Boo's power, which we're told isn't much trouble for the other Super Saiyan 2s. This either speaks of his true power being a certain amp that he has in mind, or a level of power he's experienced before, since he has a very clear idea of where this true power will place him. Either way indicating he has an experience with a certain rage boost. I don't want to therefore disregard Goku's quote, but he's kind of wrong about what he says anyway. He basically Gohan wouldn't lose to anyone if he gets angry, which we surely doubt is even true when considering Goku and Boo's true powers, right? I'll say Gohan gives us a clearer picture of how his true power will affect him, while Goku's quote works with what Vegeta said regarding its unpredictability, meaning that it could very well give him a bigger boost than previously experienced, and possibly make him stronger than the other Super Saiyan 2s at least. Note how there still very much is talk of a previous experience, though. Sure, that might make it easier. I get how you might view that as a better explanation, though I still think it a bit weird that a fighting Super Saiyan would be a greater feat of power than a standing Super Saiyan 2, given how often characters are blown away by someone powering up, but what I don't actually get is why Kaioshin can't be talking about the power he might have felt at the time that Gohan himself notes that he's angry (only not as much as he was against Cell) when we've established that Angry Gohan = a more powerful Gohan. I'm not saying that has to be the case, and I see no problems with him being a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra, but why can't the "angry at the egg" scenario be the explanation for Kaioshin's comment to Kibito? You're speaking as if it doesn't work, but I'm not seeing how it doesn't. |
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| ahill1 | Nov 30 2016, 03:40 AM Post #26 |
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Well, it's not too false to the people who think he was a SSJ after the Budokai. Sure, he seemed to do it at will in the 25th Budokai, but we are not sure if he did the same vs Dabura or so.
He was a rage boosted, of course. I just think it wasn't something beyond his Super Saiyajin 2 power. I honestly see it as some similar situations that happened before with Gohan: Back into the Saiyan Saga, Piccolo said he would bring out Gohan's hidden powers (the one he used against Raditz): ![]() In fact, he brought it up, Gohan's suppressed reading at the Saiyan saga was 981, and he was read as around 1,500 in the Namek saga. Yet, Piccolo did say that Gohan can get even stronger than him when he puts his mind on it: ![]() In fact, that was what happened. When Gohan got mad, his power reached 2,800, warranting reactions from Vegeta and Kuririn. Even though Piccolo brought his enranged powers used against Raditz as his normal/base power, Gohan can now receive an enranged boost on top of it. Similarily, I see Gohan unlocking SSJ2 (like he "unlocked" the 1,307 power, though that was through training) and now can become even stronger if he gets enranged again, then he can get something on top of his already unlocked transformation. But now he can access the transformation without being enranged (the same way he could access his ~1,307 power without being enranged).
He unlocked SSJ2 through rage, it wasn't something he did naturally. Even if he didn't power up on top of his unlocked transformation, it's still easy to assume he'd get even stronger than it through a rage boost, because it already happened before. Gohan also unlocked SSJ1 through rage, with Goku even stating "rage makes it up. You have got to get mad". Yet he saw how Gohan could get even stronger than that when he already unlocked the SSJ, which goes back to what I was saying. I don't know if Gohan would unlock a new transformation or just get some extra power on top of it.
I always interpreted the "doesn't seem as there's nothing I can do" as "I'm not so much weaker that it'd be a hopeless battle". Besides, Kaioshin said countless times how they'd be no match for Boo, how Boo was so strong and bla bla bla, so I'd think if Gohan's true power was above Boo he'd flat out state it.
Yeah, this was exactly the question I raise.
Yeah, this is pretty much the doubt I brought. Glad you caught to it fast Goku and Gohan had basically different estimations of this latter true power, with Goku apparently having it quite a bit above than his son's estimations. But I was thinking of Goku having a better grasp about Gohan's power than Gohan himself. I always saw both Goku and Piccolo as having this superior knowledge about Son Gohan's real capabilities. More than one time, Piccolo had to say to Gohan trust in his hidden powers, that he has the potential. I think a strong possibility that Gohan was the one underestimating his enranged powers, especially when it probably grew along with his age. But your point is fair enough.
Precisely for this reason that I have trouble making that statement consistent if Gohan was just a SSJ. Even if Gohan did increase his powers by being enranged in that situation (will talk about it a bit more), it's pretty doubtful he'd be stronger than his SSJ2 if he were just a SSJ1 there.
I think it's debatable if Gohan even increased his powers at that moment. Sure, Gohan being enranged = more power, but, like you said, he made note of not being enranged like at Cell and therefore couldn't make his power explode. That attack was more like a "whatever, I'll try my hardest, I don't have anything to lose" kinda of thing and Dabura's and Babidi's surprise probably came from Gohan screaming and charging his aura all of a sudden. Nobody made any comment about Gohan's power at that moment, and Kaioshin just reiterated what Goku said, without even making note of Gohan's previous power: ![]() |
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| + Ryebrid | Nov 30 2016, 05:44 AM Post #27 |
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If we're to take the Boo saga into consideration then yes it would seem so. If we take only the Cell games into consideration, you could make the numbers work, but it becomes a bit tight. IMO I've always viewed his boost as 3x and no less. |
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| + Sandy Shore | Nov 30 2016, 06:09 AM Post #28 |
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They might make a case for him being a regular Super Saiyan after the tournament for whatever reason that doesn't really make sense with anything other than the art, yeah, but his true power everyone speaks of definitely isn't his Super Saiyan 2 since he unquestionably doesn't need to be angry to transform in to it. That's a very weak position for someone to take, as far as I'm concerned. Aye, I didn't mean that he didn't rage his way in to Super Saiyan 2 in the first place. I see what you're saying, but all Piccolo bringing out his suppressed power really amounts to is just training him to get stronger, and his power still increasing with anger like always. It might work that each time he flips out it becomes a sort of default power for him, but I don't think so in any way other than perhaps a narrative-styling choice, and not in a practical sense, seeing as it's definitely counter intuitive. Again, I didn't mean to say that wasn't the case. I feel you're missing the direct comparison being made between what occurred in his fight against Cell specifically—and not just his rage boosts in general—in that his rage allowed him to become a very powerful Super Saiyan 2, and what he's being specifically told he needs to do in the Boo Arc to again become a very powerful Super Saiyan 2; become angry like he did against Cell. Since he's not missing the transformation bit, of course, but just the anger he felt at the time, that was the reason for him being a very powerful Super Saiayan 2 back then, since it is the reason for why he isn't now. That's the crux of it. I agree that if Super Saiyan 2 was all he achieved previously, then there's no reason he wouldn't get more powerful again if he gets angry. But it ignores the implications that he was a more powerful Super Saiyan 2 against Cell due to his anger, as far as I'm concerned. Also, there is a precedent for Gohan raging in to Super Saiyan 1 and then Super Saiyan 2, but that means it would follow that raging as a Super Saiyan 2 should create Super Saiyan 3. We and the characters don't expect that outcome, but we and they expect him to become considerably stronger - just like he was against Cell. If it's only a little bit greater though, there's still no guarantee of victory, and him "maybe managing something"—as the quote implies—still applies. Still, you might be right that it implies hope-filled inferiority, in which case I'd advocate that he has an amp in mind—still implying a previous boost—and not his previous power exactly. He definitely has something in mind - that much is unquestionable. A very good point, actually. Gohan is the self-doubting type, and Goku has a lot of faith in his hidden power that previously paid off. Goku would appear to be way off or greatly exaggerating for whatever reason when he said he "wouldn't lose to anyone" this time, though, and Gohan does at least have more of an awareness and understanding of his rage power post-Cell. If Super Saiyan 2 is only a 2x boost, he'd only have to get a 2.5x boost to warrant Kaioshin's comment, and still not be a full rage-out, so to speak. It's not the best scenario, but I think it can still work. But it doesn't mean Kaioshin didn't make that comment to Kibito in reference to it. I'm in full agreement that Gohan being SSJ2 against Dabra makes, not only this, but virtually everything regarding Gohan post-Budokai make vastly more sense, but a rage boost does still work for those that view him as being plain ol' Super Saiyan - even if not as well. I haven't been trying to beat you in to submission or anything, and rather got the impression you've been enjoying the debate. I suppose there's a point where we're just reiterating things senselessly, and only occasionally addressing new points. I'll read what you undoubtedly have to say of this post, but don't be surprised if I don't further reply. Edited by Sandy Shore, Nov 30 2016, 06:30 AM.
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| Dankness Lava | Nov 30 2016, 08:09 PM Post #29 |
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Dankness Forever
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I don't know if it was mentioned yet, but Gohan losing so much ki after Cell got him could also have to do with his rage boost. He went from angry, to shocked, to borderline depressed, to shocked again. |
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| ahill1 | Nov 30 2016, 10:02 PM Post #30 |
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I'd not exactly call it a weak instance, because the history is pretty inconsistent on this matter. The SSJ2 was always consistently drawn with sparks and we even have Goku explaining the difference between the two forms to Babidi, where the SSJ2 having sparks is pretty much seen as a trait of the transformation. I cannot blame them for going with the art and if Gohan couldn't turn into SSJ2 against Dabura for some reason, then they are partially right with Gohan still needing angry to transform. If I were to explain it under Gohan being a SSJ1 vs Dabura POV, I'd say the rage he felt at Videl's beating unlocked the SSJ2 for some time and later he could no longer access it.
Well, you said "I'm confused why you're so against him being rage boosted against Cell", so I just wanted to point out he was rage boosted, just not only something on top of his SSJ2. The rage boost manifested as the SSJ2. I'm against a rage boost an top of his rage boost. But I see what you meant.
Yeah, that's how I see it. His rage unlocked his SSJ2 and that is something he can use freely now (at least under a SSJ2 stand point), but now, again through rage he can get some boost on top of it.
I don't see the rage boost on top of his SSJ2 as the main reason of why Gohan was way stronger at the Cell Games, but rather, him just being stronger in general (his base form is way stronger, making it also valid for SSJ2). During Chibi Trunks' first appearance, Vegeta stated how Gohan seems out of shape and he'd be better off training: ![]() Gohan has basically two ways of getting to his Cell Games' power: 1- training; 2- being angry In the situation they were, where Boo was about to awaken, the best solution was Gohan getting angry, like he did at the Cell Games. This doesn't, however, necessarily imply there was a rage boost stacked on top of Gohan's SSJ2 in the Cell Games, you can interpret that way if you want though.
Again, I don't see it being due to his anger. It's said some times how Gohan slacked in these seven years, so I see it as being the main factor instead. Gohan's anger is now just a way for him to tap into his lost powers.
Or they just expected him becoming a more powerful SSJ2 instead? It could also just make him a more powerful SSJ2, also increasing hia lower forms. All they know is that Gohan would get stronger (as happened in many instances), so I don't see the form would end up being as something relevant, personally.
Well, he'd get like2.5x more powerful and still be a SSJ1? I don't know. But like I said in my previous post, I don;t think Gohan got significantly more powerful in that instance, if at all.
Dabura was also pretty much Gohan's equal, so I don't see how Kaioshin would not mention that instance if it were a significant boost, enough to beat Dabura. It didn't seem to have much effect on Gohan's power. Gohan also was angry at the Cell Juniors beating his friend and yet couldn't significantly increase his powers until #16's motivational speech.
Yeah, I like these type of discussions, where both debaters see and recognize the other's points. I will also likely decline into this debate, I feel I don't have much more to add. Good show Edited by ahill1, Nov 30 2016, 10:03 PM.
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